The Human Experience: Why Better CX Starts with Understanding People

Aileen’s starting point is that CX and EX both sit on a third layer organisations rarely look at: the human experience. Customers and employees arrive with their own histories, strengths, and motivations. Nobody’s asking you to be a therapist, she says, but you can’t sell to people you don’t understand.

From there the conversation covers a lot of ground. Why stories win executive buy-in where dashboards don’t. Why unsolicited feedback, the complaint nobody asked for, gets closer to the reasons behind behaviour than a survey score. How a toxic leadership legacy lingers long after the leader has gone, and eventually shows up in how customers are treated. What a poorly built chatbot quietly tells people about a business’s priorities. And how David Allison’s Valuegraphics thinking points towards designing around shared values, which cut across age, background, and postcode. Integrity, ethics, or a good bottle of red: people find each other on what they care about.

Takeaways

• Nobody remembers the dashboard. They remember the story.
• The complaint you didn’t ask for may be the most honest data you have.
• A leader can leave long before their legacy does.
• A badly built chatbot tells customers exactly where they rank.
• Age and postcode won’t tell you what someone values.
• Culture doesn’t shift with a software update.

Most CX programmes measure a great deal and understand rather less. Very little of what Aileen describes needs new technology. It needs someone to read the angry email properly, then tell the story well enough that something changes.

Catch the full episode on Spotify, YouTube if you prefer video, or wherever you usually tune into your favourite podcasts.

[00:00:20] Intro: Welcome to the CX Equation, a podcast by Tap CXM. We share actionable insights and real world case studies to equip you with the tools you need to drive loyalty, engagement and sustainable growth. With your hosts, Chantelle Casey and Mark Clydesdale.

[00:00:37] Chantelle Casey: what if you could predict consumer trends not just by looking at data, but by understanding the brain chemistry behind human connection? On today’s episode of the CX Equation, we’re joined by Aileen Day, a business advisor whose perspective is uniquely informed by her background as a qualified clinical psychotherapist. Aileen applies human behaviour, insights and neuroscience to her work, helping organisations move beyond simple transactions. She’s the pioneer of the unified CEHX framework which brings customer, employee and human experience together to build trust and long term advocacy. Aileen, it’s a pleasure to have you here.

[00:01:11] Aileen Day: Thank you so much for having me fascinated already.

[00:01:14] Chantelle Casey: I can’t wait to hear about your framework. So let’s start with. So you used to be a clinical psychotherapist and you transitioned to.

[00:01:22] Aileen Day: Still am.

[00:01:22] Chantelle Casey: You still are. So you have that background but you’ve also transitioned to business advisory services as well. How did that happen and what made you make that move?

[00:01:32] Aileen Day: I guess the business advisory actually came first. So I, after leaving a illustrious career in a corporate world, I went into PR consulting. So I’m also a qualified PR specialist and realised that what people needed wasn’t pr, they needed cx and so they needed an overhaul in the way that they design their business for their customers and to design in a way that their customers wanted to come back, not needed to, wanted to come back. And I find that to be a really, in my therapy work, especially a really clear delineation between when people say, oh, I had to versus I want to. And that for me became one of the, I guess, precursors for how I wanted to help other organisations design their business so that people wanted to, not they had to. And so over Covid, I got the opportunity to do my training as a clinical psychotherapist and clinical hypnotherapist. And so I’ve been doing that for now six years, but the business advisory stuff has been 10 years. So it came hand in hand at some point when Covid hit and I was like, I don’t want to be a misery gut and I don’t know about you guys, but here in Melbourne we were one of the most locked down cities in the world. So it was either sink or swim.

[00:03:06] Mark Clydesdale: Oh, very interesting. And so how do you kind of move between the two roles?

[00:03:10] Aileen Day: So what was starting to happen? I was, just before COVID had hit, I was running a 12 month mentoring and group coaching programme. And in that group coaching I would mentor the participants on a quarterly basis and give them, we’d work through different goals for them and whatnot. And initially they would achieve and they’d get that dopamine hit, oh, look what I did. And it was excellent. But then they get to this point where consistently wouldn’t say hitting the ceiling, they were hitting the wall. And these really weird limiting beliefs started kicking in and they’re like, I can’t or I shouldn’t or I who am I? All this, you know, imposter syndrome stuff that we hear about a lot now, but six years ago, rarely and or even longer was pre Covid. So before that, and I thought to myself, what is going on with these really smart, intelligent senior level business owners, business leaders? What is going on with them that they can’t see what I can see? And so I would give them feedback and mentor them through what I could to a point where based on my life experience and my career experience, I felt it was applicable. But then there were parts of me where I was like, I don’t know that I’ve got enough tools in the tool chest to be able to help you more than I already am. And what could that look like? And then when Covid came up, I was like, I’ve got all this time, I was a single mom with my son at the time, was doing 50/50 with me and his father. So I had a week to myself every second week and I was like, what am I going to do? And I had the opportunity to do the training to be a clinical psychotherapist. And in that now it just feels part and parcel, do conference speaking and I can sit there and just hold a room with the qualification to say the things that people want to say but aren’t sure they should and shows up. In my mentoring now I do say the things that I didn’t feel comfortable saying before and asking the questions and leading conversations down a path that I know could lead to more vulnerability than I was previously feeling comfortable in doing. And it gives people this, I guess, double edged win because they’re getting a mentoring session and essentially a therapy session in one. And a lot of the time, what business Owners don’t realise, until it comes to the crunch is that so much of the challenges and obstacles that they face in their business is because of themselves and because of their previous experiences that they might not have the capacity or the articulation to comprehend is events that happened to them in the past are now showing up in weird and wonderful ways in their current experiences. And so I help them be able to break that down and help them build their business at the same time.

[00:06:39] Mark Clydesdale: That is really interesting. I think our last podcast with Brett Kiley, he was talking about the relationship between the employee experience and customer experience and how essential that is. Whereas your framework with CEHX brings in that human element as well. And I can hear as you’re talking that because we are all human, right, we’re all wrestling with our own demons and inadequacies and we’re in positions of responsibility, we have to make the right decisions. So. So, yeah, I think it’s fascinating how you’re bringing those three pillars together and it would just be great to hear more about how that’s working in real practice.

[00:07:17] Aileen Day: I think at the moment, especially we were just talking about the rise of large language models and machine learning and all of that stuff. There is this weird kind of dystopian expectation that machines will take our jobs and machines watch something today that said, so the future generation or the current young generation, so I have a 4 year old as an example, their generation will grow up to be adults and interact with AI in a way that humans can never replicate. And that means what that looks like is a replication. Or they can’t replicate things like inherent patience, they can’t replicate things like consistent praise. Eventually even a human would be like, oh my God, I told you, you’re good, move on. But a robot or an AI piece of machinery would incessantly become your sycophant if you want them to. And that’s what the next generation or the current little babies of today are going to end up living with. And I think people have that in their mind. That’s already a thing, and it is to a very small level. But what I like to express to people is that, at least for now, your customers and for the most part, your employees are still human beings. They come with a broad range of life experiences, traumas, with passions, with strengths, with motivations, good, bad or ugly, whatever they might be. And it’s your job as someone that wants to be in business to figure that out. And I’m not saying it’s your job to be a therapist, but it Is your job to understand a little bit deeper what drives those people to want to show up for you and run your business the way you want to have it run. And you can’t do that if you don’t know anything about them. And I think that’s where the human experience comes into play, is that you can’t sell to people you don’t understand. You can’t have people who you don’t understand work with you or for you. You have to, at some level, have a curiosity that goes beyond your own self, your own values, your own cares, your own passions. Because a lot of time when we go into business, especially for ourselves, it’s for something that we love. If I think about my husband, for example, my husband’s a tattoo artist. He went into business for himself, opened up a studio, got a bunch of other artists in because he loves tattooing. But he never went. He has since. But at the time, he never went to the depths of finding out what drove those artists to bring customers in. He never went to the depths of learning about what they were like as humans, what they valued, what made them want to be there, even if they didn’t have a customer. How do you engage with them when you have to have a hard conversation without them going off the deep end and never wanting to talk to you again? All of these. And a lot of. We think we call it leadership, but it’s really humanity. It’s upskilling our humanity in my mind, and we don’t do enough of that. I talked about it in the book. It actually makes me really sad that H wasn’t already included in that acronym. And for those who might not know, because hilariously, I did not at the time, but CEX, C, E, X. So customer employee experience was already a thing. It’s been a thing for years and years. Hilariously, I had never come across it, which until I did from a colleague of mine who had showed me his new book from a gentleman. An Australian author called Jason Bradshaw called let’s Talk About CEX. And I was like, what? Now? I love being a little bit contentious because, you know, it’s my character and my nature. But I thought, there’s something missing. What is it? There’s something missing in that. And I sat on that for a little bit with a few bottles of red wine, not ashamed to say, and thought it’s the human experience. We don’t put enough energy into understanding the people we serve and the people that help us serve them. And that’s why we probably find ourselves in to be blunt in this shit show that many countries and organisations across many countries are currently facing.

[00:12:18] Chantelle Casey: Why do you think that is such a common thing? Like you say that people leave out that human layer. When you say it like that, you think it’s obvious. Obviously we’re all human, we all move through the world in different ways. But the thing that we have consistently is that we’re all human. Right. So why do people miss out that layer or what challenges have you seen people.

[00:12:36] Aileen Day: It’s a really great question. I think for a couple of reasons. There are a lot of organisations that rely on people needing them, not wanting them. We talked about wanting versus needing but they need them. And places like insurance companies, telecommunications, utilities providers, those types of organisations, they get to thrive because the competition is so weak. Especially here in Australia, it’s very weak. Supermarkets, we have two major supermarkets, we have two major water utilities, we have no choice. The option to move around and speak with your feet is limited and I think organisations know that and they get to capitalise on that. And they’re okay with that. They’re okay with that. They’re okay with being shit because where else are you going to go?

[00:13:37] Mark Clydesdale: And some of those companies that you mentioned are quite commoditized by financial services and telcos. Like they’re not emotional relationships with the person that allows me to drive my car. It’s just a necessity.

[00:13:51] Aileen Day: Yeah, hugely transactional. They don’t give a shit about you. They’re not there to make your life any easier, I promise you. But they don’t care. I question how some of those industries sleep at night. But from an ethics standpoint that that’s not their gig. But they also don’t really promise that either. Depends, actually, some of them like to. Again this is where the question around do you need PR or do you need to redesign your whole customer experience model is where I look at these people, especially when I see some of their campaigns and I’m like “probably overselling what you do there”. But then ultimately so many other organisations who aren’t in those type of commodity industries, but I fear that there’s a little bit of a generational issue happening. And the more I hear about it, the more I see it in action, the more I realise that there are senior leaders. So C suite boards being made up of people my age, probably a bit older. So I’m in my mid-40s and I’m starting to see C suite getting taken up by 40 to 50 year olds. Excellent.

[00:15:06] Chantelle Casey: Love that.

[00:15:07] Aileen Day: For the millennials and the Gen X’s and then you’ve got a mix of the generation mixed in with some older generation, probably boomers. And there is a real toxic culture and it’s not just here in Australia. And I’d love to hear your insight actually, if you’ve ever noticed it in the uk. But there’s this real toxic culture of it was hard for me to get up the ladder and so everybody else better work for it. Everybody else. That isn’t like busting out 80 to 100 hours a week. You don’t deserve it, you’re not committed, you don’t want this, you want a life work balance. You’re pathetic. Right. And there’s this real insistence that I’m not interested in understanding you as a human being unless you do it the hard way, like I did. And that is hurting them.

[00:16:02] Mark Clydesdale: I think we have challenges here, more around just doing things the way they’ve always been done. Right. And business leaders not catching up with the times. So I help clients with their operating models. And one of the things that we say about empowering motivated individuals, you’ve almost got to try and turn the org chart upside down. And we worked with a financial services client a few years ago and they literally just changed the way the org chart was displayed so the leaders were on the bottom and there was a psychological impact. But it’s the idea that the people on the ground, the less senior people, they’re where the information is and they’re where work’s getting done. Right. And so we would extol to our clients, treat them with respect and have your leaders, not managers role being to support them in doing their job in the best way as opposed to your job being to be important and give them orders and tell them what to do. And I think it’s a big change. Yeah. You do still see a lot of organisations running in that quite old fashioned hierarchical way. But that is starting to break down now as we try and push more autonomy into young, motivated teams.

[00:17:13] Aileen Day: Yeah, absolutely. When I first left, finished high school, I went into a management trainee role with one of the two major supermarkets here. And there was very much, there is, was and is still a very much a traditional hierarchical organisation and you would do as you were told when you were told to do it, as you were told to do it. And if you didn’t, there were quite severe consequences and it was a whole lot of micromanagement, very little autonomy, horrible back then, horrible culture.

[00:18:01] Mark Clydesdale: There’s a great video I’d recommend, actually, it’s Captain David Marquette and people could google “leadership on a submarine”. It’s about eight minutes long, but it’s this captain of a submarine who talks about him being a captain with, I don’t know, 170 people on a submarine, what does he want? Him making all the decisions and 170 people following orders, or 171 people thinking and trying to get to the best outcome. So that’s a great video to watch and I’d recommend it to our listeners.

[00:18:30] Aileen Day: I’ll definitely check that out. The next organisation that I went to after that was, you might be know, of Bunnings. Bunnings came to the UK for a hot five minutes. Sorry, Bunnings, think Home Depot, but green and Australia’s version. And that was my first introduction to a reverse pyramid hierarchy. And initially I had come from the supermarket culture where I was a bit sceptical. I’ll believe it when I see it. And honestly, after 16 years, to this day, is exactly how they run their business. The team members on the front line, in the stores, in the warehouses, they are the ones that are the decision makers, they are the ones, they move with their feet, they’re the ones coming up with new systems, new processes. And it is everybody else’s job. And especially when you get to store support, it is your job. And you are told often that it’s your job to make their job as easy as possible and to make sure that whatever they need to make a customer want to be a customer at Bunnings is what you’ll do. And I think that completely is a mind shift to most cultures.

[00:19:49] Mark Clydesdale: If we can explore that a little bit more, nice. It’s shifting from the employee to the end customer. So I also worked in supermarkets for a good six years over here and I was an analyst, an insight analyst, and I was going around collecting lots of data on what customers did. It was very difficult to shift the direction of the business just on what customers did. We also needed the why were they doing it? And it was only when the insight team with the market research and the ethnography and the focus groups spoke to customers and could come along as this is what customers say they want. And sometimes I’d have the data to say, they might be saying that, but they’re not doing that. But at times there’d be them saying what they wanted and I’d have the data to show they were doing it. And when you got that together, you really had something powerful to say, right, this is what we need to do to serve our customers better. So can you maybe delve into that more and how you use human experience to really add that richness to what the customer wants?

[00:20:49] Aileen Day: I think that is actually hilarious. And that’s one of the things that I started to experience myself. So I used to be the National Customer Insights Manager before I finished with Bunnings. And so I led the team, the Customer Insights team. We had data analysts and I want to say, lucky we never asked for it. We would get upwards of 1500 pieces of unsolicited feedback every week that we would have a team of humans. And this is when some organisations were already turning to AI and this was long before the chatgpts of the world existed. But they were doing natural language processing. The strategy at Bunnings is that it’s edlp. So everyday, lowest prices and that flowed through the whole organisation. So it was like we could go and use this AI programme that is not trained and will cost a bomb to train, or we could have five team members who know our organisation came from stores, understand our customer journey, understand our purpose and categorise that feedback. And they did all the categorizations. So and they became absolute wizards at it. The actionable insights then lent us to be able to start working cross functionally through all of the other parts of the organisation and giving them rich data that was backed up not just with the what, but with the why. And I say we’re lucky because we didn’t ask for it, but we consistently managed to get customers telling us why they wanted something. So they’d say, for example, you should have a sign that points to the toilets, for example. And because when my 3 year old needed to go, I had no idea where I was going. And like, oh, there’s your why. Now, another colleague of mine who is the Customer Insights manager at another organisation, their organisation used to pay people $5 for feedback. And so they would essentially solicit feedback, not solicit it was unsolicited, but if you wrote in your feedback you got a $5 voucher. But she has said to me at the time, if it was the very worst strategy we ever came up with because all it did was invite junk. And I could imagine as a data analyst, your head would just explode with the absolute and utter rubbish that people would consume your time with and there’d be no insights.

[00:24:17] Mark Clydesdale: Yeah. If you’re an everyday low price operator as well, people tend to be price sensitive. So the offer of a five pound voucher. I’m going to give you some feedback to get my five pound voucher, but it’s not necessarily going to be good feedback.

[00:24:30] Aileen Day: That’s exactly right. So this other company wasn’t edlp, but they were thirsty for insight, they were thirsty for qualitative and quantitative data that they just weren’t getting. And they weren’t getting it because they were just purely seen as a transaction. They weren’t seen as the go to, they were seen as the had to, not the want to.

[00:24:53] Mark Clydesdale: Interesting other thing I would say, and this takes us back to employee, my experience with my analysis. So I was younger and more naive then and I would go into the boardroom with lots of charts. I had charts about why we should remove £1 coin locks on trolleys. Right. And I had charts showing the average amount of customers spent in a store with a trolley lock versus ones without. And it was compelling. I showed we could get 5% more revenue if we took the trolley locks off. And no one listened to me. And then a director came along, a big charismatic Scottish nuclear physicist, and he told a story and he said, I was in the Kirkstall store the other day and he wasn’t. He’s making this all up. And I saw a lady get out her car with her child in one arm and bags in the other arm and she had to then pay a pound for the parking. And so that was a pound coin. And then she got to the trolleys and then she needed another pound coin and she hasn’t got the pound coin. And she thought, soda, I’m off the Tesco. And that was. Or the storytelling to the other executives was what made things change. And so then we’re coming back to the human experience of not just understanding the customer, but telling the story internally in a way that gets you the buy in to actually make some change.

[00:26:11] Aileen Day: As an organisation, we are visual creatures and that is the power of storytelling. It is a rare human who can’t empathise with that in some way. Shape or form, that they could feel that friction as they hear those words and imagine that stressed out parent and the frustration that they might feel. Back in the day I used to do the same thing too. I would go in with my dashboards and my charts and my little reports, my summary section and work my tits off, mind you, getting it all together and then same deal. Like someone would go, oh, so I went into the store on the weekend and this is what happened. What a crock of shit. Let’s change it. And everybody be like, you’re an ideas man. I’d be like, my beautiful dashboard. And I think what I came to learn over time was no one gives a shit about your dashboard. No one gives a shit about your dashboard. What they give a shit about is you coming up with definitive reasons that clearly articulate. And that’s what stories do. So get good at telling stories. Clearly articulate why a change should occur and where it could be aligned to the strategic priorities or strategic vision of the business. Chef’s Kiss. If there was something in the. Say it’s this year, 2026, 2027, strategic vision to reduce friction. And you went in with that story and you could show, hey, I also came back to the office after seeing that and realised that we were only paying $5,000 a year for trolleys to get picked up out of the riverbed. But this is costing us $15,000 to get those locks put on and it’s also losing us $100,000 in revenue. What do we do about that? That makes people get on their toes and go pay attention. No one cared about my dashboard size either Mark.

[00:28:44] Chantelle Casey: OK just on that. In terms of telling the story and convincing senior c-suite people that the human experience is important….I guess it’s a fairly new concept compared to employee and customer experience. As we spoke about before, when you’re working with clients these days, how do you convince people that aren’t on board that it is going to drive value for their brand, prioritising it?

[00:29:06] Aileen Day: Because my biggest challenge is convincing them to give it time. Because we expect humans to change. Like we update software. Like, I’ll just give it 90 seconds to buffer and you’ll see the difference. That sadly is not ever going to be the case. Because you need to –  I don’t want to use the word break them down, but you need to – break down what the breakdown is. You need to diagnose what the obstacles are. And for each person that could be bloody different. And I think that’s where I say I don’t expect leaders to be therapists because I think that’s very dangerous, but so many organisations don’t even utilise their Employee Assistance Programmes, EAPs. Like the amount of organisations I’ve spoken to and I’m like, do you have an eap? And they’re like, “a what?” I have to explain it to them? And they’re like, oh yeah, this team member that you want to fire, have you thought about sending them to see a therapist? Maybe there’s some stuff going on that you’re just not privy to and they need to talk to someone and they’re like, “oh, I don’t know if I could talk to them about that stuff”. I’m like, “you don’t, you just hand them a number”. And so if it’s not this complete lack of what do I do and how do I do it, it’s this, when will I see my return on investment? And so that’s nearly my hardest thing to get them to come on board with is when I say, I don’t know, you might not ever, you might not ever. And there’s been a couple of times where team members have deselected, they’ve removed themselves because they can’t deal with the fact that the organisation starting to ask questions or starting to hold people accountable or starting to put in boundaries that protect other team members. So for example, we had one client who there was a real problem with gossiping and just it was becoming quite toxic. Everybody was becoming quite paranoid that if they weren’t in the room they were getting talked about. And so we started putting in some boundaries and we started putting in some offers of do people need therapy? Because I know generally when people gossip and talk shit about other people, it’s a self esteem issue and it’s because they don’t feel very good about themselves that it makes themselves feel better to feel like they are better than another person. Sometimes it is just genuine frustration because another human being is shit. And that can be two things can be true, but who are they talking to about these things? And it was becoming quite toxic. And so some people said, I don’t like this, I’m out, no worries. Great. If it’s not for you, off you hop. Great. But the return on investment, to put in the effort to see people be the best they can be is never a five minute job. Sometimes it’s not even a five year job.

[00:32:16] Mark Clydesdale: I think it’s the building of the Empire State Building in New York is actually a great example, real life example, of what can be achieved if you treat your employees with respect. So I won’t go into it now because we’re out of time, but look into it and basically they treat all of them, they pay them more, they treat them well, they give them the facilities, they respect them. And the Empire State Building is one of the few projects that ran on time, on budget and was better than they originally planned. I want to just finish us off talking a little bit about technology. Are there any technologies that you’ve seen that help us understand? I suppose it’s probably more likely the customer than the employee, but can we try and mine some human experience understanding from customers?

[00:33:03] Aileen Day: I think from a customer and employee experience piece, the organisations or businesses that tend to have say support teams, so customer support teams, contact centres. The contact centre CX technology realm is huge, huge. Like the Zendesks and the Zooms and the genesis of the world. They’re all about how can they make the employee experience so friction free that the customer experience is such as well, it flows onto the customer experience and that’s the whole premise of the employee experience being conjoined to the customer experience. But I think if we’re talking technology, it seems to be that customer experience technology seems to start in the call centre. And I’m loving. I attended a conference the other day for Varant, for example, not a paid ad and just seeing what Varant are doing for the employee experience that then creates this absolutely like pure omnichannel, friction free experience for the customer where the effort is so low but the satisfaction is so high. And what they’re including in those is they’re utilising AI in a way that, for example, it listens to the conversation and it can track with crazy accuracy because it’s come a long way since it started back in the day, but it can track with crazy accuracy the tone of a customer’s voice if they’re getting agitated. It can even track if the employee is getting agitated and frost rigid if they sense that, it can send reports, live feeds to the team lead to let them know as an alert, hey, you might want to go and Tune into what’s going on over here. It then gives the employee a feed of, here’s the questions I heard the customer ask. And it goes into a knowledge bank in real time. And so if the organisation has set it up properly, which is also the scary part, many of them have not. They don’t have a single point of truth, they have AI just pulling bits and pieces from God knows wherever it’s collecting it. But the people, the organisations that are doing it really well, they’ve created a knowledge bank where the customer says what they’re looking for, it goes into the knowledge bank and it comes back instantly, barely a couple of blinks later and says, hey, this is what I heard the customer ask for. Here’s some answers you could try.

[00:36:32] Chantelle Casey: This makes it seamless for them as well.

[00:36:35] Aileen Day: Thank you, that’s all I needed. The thing with AI at the moment, a lot of organisations, even small businesses, are testing it out by using, say, bots, for example. But recent studies are finding that 70% of interactions with a bot, 70% still require the customer to speak to an employee. So it’s not working.

[00:37:02] Mark Clydesdale: Yeah, we’re actually closer to what you were describing, running a pilot with a client at the moment to use large language models to mine a call transcript. So this isn’t quite in real time yet. But understanding if that interaction wasn’t successful, can we gather any intent from things that the customer said on the call? And we are getting to, number one, just great insight to the company as to what’s working, what’s not working, but then also getting to that knowledge bank of if you are to follow up with this customer, here’s some signals that they gave us last time around so you can possibly help them better this time around.

[00:37:36] Aileen Day: That type of stuff that aids the human experience, not manipulates it, that I love when it’s done ethically and in a way that the project has been managed, that you’re not setting those employees up to fail, because honestly, where you’re setting up bots that are designed poorly, that over and over again require you to still have contact with a human, what are you doing? What? Outside of making customers more angry, what are you doing? You’re really just hurting yourself. You’re sabotaging your own experience and your revenue, your bottom line as well. And I think they set their customers up, that they set their employees up to fail when they do that, because by the time that customer does get on the phone, they’re agitated. And then the same with these organisations who have gone and installed, say, these contact centre CX SaaS platforms and they’ve not done it properly and now the data is filing in from God knows where and it’s not the accurate information that it should or could be. And so therefore you run the risk of that employee not knowing any different because. Let’s talk also the retention of a call centre, the employee retention of a call centre is probably the lowest out of any part of any organisation. So they’re constantly battling, trying to upskill employees. They’re going to become reliant on the information being fed to them in a live situation. And if that data, as you can appreciate, is not clean, data is not part of the knowledge bank, then they’re probably going to provide misinformation and make the experience worse.

[00:39:30] Mark Clydesdale: Absolutely.

[00:39:31] Chantelle Casey: So we’re getting to the end of our time now. So one last question to summarise. A very fascinating chat about human experience and how that impacts, obviously customer and employee experience, how the three of them come together. Obviously you’ve mentioned that you’ve written the book the Joy of CEHX, C E H X. Great title. Apart from giving that a good read. If any of our listeners have been inspired and want to find out a little bit more about being less transactional with their customers and employees and a bit more CEHX-ual, what’s your best advice for them?

[00:40:02] Aileen Day: My best advice would be to And if you haven’t connected with a gentleman on LinkedIn called. David Allen is the founder of Value Graphics. I tell everybody that I speak to about him. I can’t do it better than him, but I tell everybody Go to my website, there’s a whole page under Resources from the book that you can get for free. You don’t have to put any emails in or anything, just download those resources and go through them and understand what the touch points of your business look like. And would you shop with you, Would you come back if you went through that experience? What does that look like? And worst case scenario, if all of that feels too hard, just get in touch.

[00:41:39] Mark Clydesdale: I’m definitely going to go have a look.

[00:41:41] Chantelle Casey: Well, thank you for joining us, Aileen.

[00:41:42] Aileen Day: Do it. Great cehx hah.

[00:41:44] Mark Clydesdale: Yeah, great. Thanks, Aileen. It’s really fascinating.

[00:41:47] Aileen Day: Thank you so much, guys. Really pleasure to be here.

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